Vacheron Overseas.....

[matt.wu]

But Drew, are you comparing like examples, such as a $40k JLC with a $40k AP? I think as most compare the $15-30k Royal Oaks to, say, the steel Master Compressors at $10-15k, those aren't really fair comparisons. Like I wrote above, I don't think something like the Duometre a Quantieme Lunaire gives up anything in any department to anything in the same price range at AP. Put yet another way, I'd like to see AP try and make a watch for $8-10k that compares well with an entry level JLC.

FWIW, I think the case finishing on a $5k Omega is better executed than all JLC's I've handled.

I pretty much only buy 'em for the movement or history. The level of finishing has never impressed me.

[Dixan]

But Drew, are you comparing like examples, such as a $40k JLC with a $40k AP? I think as most compare the $15-30k Royal Oaks to, say, the steel Master Compressors at $10-15k, those aren't really fair comparisons. Like I wrote above, I don't think something like the Duometre a Quantieme Lunaire gives up anything in any department to anything in the same price range at AP. Put yet another way, I'd like to see AP try and make a watch for $8-10k that compares well with an entry level JLC.

FWIW, I think the case finishing on a $5k Omega is better executed than all JLC's I've handled.

I pretty much only buy 'em for the movement or history. The level of finishing has never impressed me.

Well, I'm sorry to hear of your and Mark's bad experiences. They are, I'm sure, more anomaly than the norm. C'mon, though... Surely, saying that they were less well executed than a $5k Omega is a bit disingenuous and hyperbolic?

Can you tell us exactly which model JLCs let you down so? I'd really like to know. And in what ways did they not live up to your expectations? :-) Honeslty, in all the time I've spent on various watch enthusiast forums, this must be the very first time I've heard anything along these lines. Very surprising!


EDIT: Also, I've been fortunate enough to have owned maybe a few dozen Omegas, and last year I bought six JLCs. I've also handled many more from both brands, on many occasions. I can say, without doubt, that the JLC cases are far better detailed, with very noticeably finer finishing than any Omega's that I've ever owned or handled. It's really not even close at all. Perhaps you've just overextended a bit in trying to make your point? Sorry, and I don't mean to sound combative, but that's the only thing that makes any sense here. Again, I'd love to hear of your bad experiences, in detail. Thx.

[belligero]

Just thought I'd mention that Reverso cases rate among the most flawlessly finished and precise metal objects I've personally handled, and I'm including laboratory equipment. Despite the intricate design, the clearances are so minimal that they give the impression they'd be gas-tight, yet the feel of operation is absolutely smooth and precise whether it's a brand-new one or something with several years of use. It's a seriously impressive mechanism to a mechanics nerd like me, but then again, the watch does bear the name of the dude that invented the micrometer.

[Dixan]

Just thought I'd mention that Reverso cases rate among the most flawlessly finished and precise metal objects I've personally handled, and I'm including laboratory equipment. Despite the intricate design, the clearances are so minimal that they give the impression they'd be gas-tight, yet the feel of operation is absolutely smooth and precise whether it's a brand-new one or something with several years of use. It's a seriously impressive mechanism to a mechanics nerd like me, but then again, the watch does bear the name of the dude that invented the micrometer.

Very well stated. I totally agree.

I can't wait to finally own the Grande Reverso 976 I've been pining for. Hopefully this year. ;-)

[dukerules]

You guys are ballers. I love VC and JLC, but for whatever reason, the classic Royal Oak design remains my favorite high-endish watch design behind the classic 5711. The ROs are stunning in the metal, and I think some of that doesn't translate to images on a computer screen. I also know that with my lifestyle, a 15202, 15300, or 15400 isn't the most practical watch out there. I don't mind scratches and even dings for the most part, but the thought of incurring damage to that RO bezel occur makes me shudder. I should probably stick to the lower-hanging fruit.

[belligero]

It's funny you mention that - I wear my Rolexes but collect my APs (and the VC before it left). For wearability, nothing beats Rolex and Omega in my book (and with the outer AR coating on the Planet Ocean, I'd say the wearability of that one is lower than Rolex too) .

This is a significant consideration for me, too.

As much as I love the idea of a top-shelf steel watch like a Nautilus/Overseas/RO, I have to seriously question whether something with an horlogerie-oriented movement and an intricately-finished integrated bracelet is realistic in my life. I do a lot of posh-bracelet-unfriendly activities, so it would be a bit of a niche item. Something a bit less "sporty" makes more sense to me as the fancy-pants option, as there's less overlap with the ones I actually use as swimming/cycling/skiing watches. These high-end steel sports models are seriously cool watches, but maybe when I start acting like a grown-up...

Johnny, since you're checking out steel chronos, have you considered the Daytona? I just mention this because a few years ago I met a watchmaker in his early 30s who — I shit you not — was formerly employed at Patek Philippe HQ to restore vintage movements before coming to Norway to work with insanely complex subsea robotic equipment (at significantly higher pay). We of course got to talking about watches, and I couldn't help but notice that had a black-dial Daytona on his wrist. At the time, I still believed the usual WUSsy drivel that Rolex movements are no better than typical ETAs, so hearing what makes them superior from the perspective of a legitimate expert instead of an online one really opened my eyes. He said that for wearing rather than collecting, the 4130 was his favourite movement, period.

[Kustoms4ever]

Interesting thoughts all around.

[Dixan]

But Drew, are you comparing like examples, such as a $40k JLC with a $40k AP? I think as most compare the $15-30k Royal Oaks to, say, the steel Master Compressors at $10-15k, those aren't really fair comparisons. Like I wrote above, I don't think something like the Duometre a Quantieme Lunaire gives up anything in any department to anything in the same price range at AP. Put yet another way, I'd like to see AP try and make a watch for $8-10k that compares well with an entry level JLC.

FWIW, I think the case finishing on a $5k Omega is better executed than all JLC's I've handled.

I pretty much only buy 'em for the movement or history. The level of finishing has never impressed me.

Well, I'm sorry to hear of your and Mark's bad experiences. They are, I'm sure, more anomaly than the norm. C'mon, though... Surely, saying that they were less well executed than a $5k Omega is a bit disingenuous and hyperbolic?

Can you tell us exactly which model JLCs let you down so? I'd really like to know. And in what ways did they not live up to your expectations? :-) Honeslty, in all the time I've spent on various watch enthusiast forums, this must be the very first time I've heard anything along these lines. Very surprising!


EDIT: Also, I've been fortunate enough to have owned maybe a few dozen Omegas, and last year I bought six JLCs. I've also handled many more from both brands, on many occasions. I can say, without doubt, that the JLC cases are far better detailed, with very noticeably finer finishing than any Omega's that I've ever owned or handled. It's really not even close at all. Perhaps you've just overextended a bit in trying to make your point? Sorry, and I don't mean to sound combative, but that's the only thing that makes any sense here. Again, I'd love to hear of your bad experiences, in detail. Thx.

JLC is a house famous for their movement technology - with hundreds of in-house developed calibers over time, and certainly some of the most innovative. And for that, I respect them greatly and have owned quite a few JLC pieces. That being said, their finishing on metal just isn't anything special at their price points. To Matt's point, $5-6k MSRP Omega Planet Oceans are finished better to me on the case and bracelets - it's not a microscopic analysis of the metal, but the Omegas are just more comfortable with less sharp edges.

And if we wanted to get down to the price level, my Navy Seals Alarm on bracelet ($15k MSRP or so) is no match for my AP Royal Oak 15400 on bracelet ($16,900 MSRP) - pretty similar in pricing on those 2 models. And my old Master Compressor Memovox (retailed at $10k or so) is far less finished to me than my old UN Maxi Marine Diver (retails at around $10k as well). And I have a particular beef with the Deepsea Alarm - at $12.5k, the metal finishing on my old one was, well, significantly less than expected - sharp edges along the left side of the case, and the caseback had a sharp circumference as well. Even a Breitling Navitimer at about half the MSRP is better finished (and comes with a very well finished bracelet).

I don't buy JLC for their level of finishing, I buy them for their movement innovations. Currently have a Memovox Tribute to Polaris 1968 and a Navy Seals Alarm in the collection from them, plus some other watches (I think at least 2 APs) with JLC movements inside .

While I'm not suggesting my Navy SEALs Diving Auto's case is the absolute final word in case finish refinement (I actually believe my Master Memovox is finished to a finer degree, as it should be, being a dress(ier) watch), I do believe some here are unfairly giving JLC short shrift for some reason, when in fact they more than hold their own for each respective price bracket. For example, you will never see this kind of intricate detailing on any Omega diver's watch case:





You'll notice the surface finish and brushed graining direction changes just in this one area where the case transitions into the lug. And btw, the sharp edges on this case are definitely part of the design, and they give these watches a harder edged, serious tool watch appeal.

I, for one, like that the Navy SEALs watches, and the Master Compressor divers in general, are more tool like and genuinely sporty, compared to the likes of the sport-dressy pieces like the APRO, PPN, VC Overseas. Sure, there's a place for those watches, but let's face it, they're not "true" sports watches by any means (perhaps something like the ROO Diver excepted).

[Dixan]

But Drew, are you comparing like examples, such as a $40k JLC with a $40k AP? I think as most compare the $15-30k Royal Oaks to, say, the steel Master Compressors at $10-15k, those aren't really fair comparisons. Like I wrote above, I don't think something like the Duometre a Quantieme Lunaire gives up anything in any department to anything in the same price range at AP. Put yet another way, I'd like to see AP try and make a watch for $8-10k that compares well with an entry level JLC.

FWIW, I think the case finishing on a $5k Omega is better executed than all JLC's I've handled.

I pretty much only buy 'em for the movement or history. The level of finishing has never impressed me.

Well, I'm sorry to hear of your and Mark's bad experiences. They are, I'm sure, more anomaly than the norm. C'mon, though... Surely, saying that they were less well executed than a $5k Omega is a bit disingenuous and hyperbolic?

Can you tell us exactly which model JLCs let you down so? I'd really like to know. And in what ways did they not live up to your expectations? :-) Honeslty, in all the time I've spent on various watch enthusiast forums, this must be the very first time I've heard anything along these lines. Very surprising!


EDIT: Also, I've been fortunate enough to have owned maybe a few dozen Omegas, and last year I bought six JLCs. I've also handled many more from both brands, on many occasions. I can say, without doubt, that the JLC cases are far better detailed, with very noticeably finer finishing than any Omega's that I've ever owned or handled. It's really not even close at all. Perhaps you've just overextended a bit in trying to make your point? Sorry, and I don't mean to sound combative, but that's the only thing that makes any sense here. Again, I'd love to hear of your bad experiences, in detail. Thx.

JLC is a house famous for their movement technology - with hundreds of in-house developed calibers over time, and certainly some of the most innovative. And for that, I respect them greatly and have owned quite a few JLC pieces. That being said, their finishing on metal just isn't anything special at their price points. To Matt's point, $5-6k MSRP Omega Planet Oceans are finished better to me on the case and bracelets - it's not a microscopic analysis of the metal, but the Omegas are just more comfortable with less sharp edges.

And if we wanted to get down to the price level, my Navy Seals Alarm on bracelet ($15k MSRP or so) is no match for my AP Royal Oak 15400 on bracelet ($16,900 MSRP) - pretty similar in pricing on those 2 models. And my old Master Compressor Memovox (retailed at $10k or so) is far less finished to me than my old UN Maxi Marine Diver (retails at around $10k as well). And I have a particular beef with the Deepsea Alarm - at $12.5k, the metal finishing on my old one was, well, significantly less than expected - sharp edges along the left side of the case, and the caseback had a sharp circumference as well. Even a Breitling Navitimer at about half the MSRP is better finished (and comes with a very well finished bracelet).

I don't buy JLC for their level of finishing, I buy them for their movement innovations. Currently have a Memovox Tribute to Polaris 1968 and a Navy Seals Alarm in the collection from them, plus some other watches (I think at least 2 APs) with JLC movements inside .

While I'm not suggesting my Navy SEALs Diving Auto's case is the absolute final word in case finish refinement (I actually believe my Master Memovox is finished to a finer degree, as it should be, being a dress(ier) watch), I do believe some here are unfairly giving JLC short shrift for some reason, when in fact they more than hold their own for each respective price bracket. For example, you will never see this kind of intricate detailing on any Omega diver's watch case:



You'll notice the surface finish and brushed graining direction changes just in this one area where the case transitions into the lug. And btw, the sharp edges on this case are definitely part of the design, and they give these watches a harder edged, serious tool watch appeal.

I, for one, like that the Navy SEALs watches, and the Master Compressor divers in general, are more tool like and genuinely sporty, compared to the likes of the sport-dressy pieces like the APRO, PPN, VC Overseas. Sure, there's a place for those watches, but let's face it, they're not "true" sports watches by any means (perhaps something like the ROO Diver excepted).

Glad you're a fan .

And you of your RO.