hahahaha!!!hoppyjr wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:10 pmWario406 wrote:Do we know each other?!?hoppyjr wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:41 pmAgreed. I believe he feels dirty because of the stockings, panties, and leather collar with “slut” in rhinestones.Henryj wrote:I get that you bought a Seestern. I get that you feel dirty. But, correlation is not causation.
No wristwatch should make you feel dirty.
Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Definitely getting academic, we all have different places to draw the line. Design is all derivative, but for me I find the design/engineering the most interesting aspect of the watch hobby. For most "products" I value original design over copies at a discount. I might take a different line on things like pharmaceuticals... thankfully Pfizer never had a patent on penicillin and it is cheap and easy for everyone to replicate.... I don't think watches play the same role in contributing to the greater good.Ryeguy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:58 amWhat I find interesting from an academic perspective is whether this type of position (not you specifically, but generally speaking) is consistent across all commercial products?
For example, how many Glock, Browning, or AR-15 design copies are there out there? Car manufacturers crib design elements all the time, as do consumer electronics companies. The list goes on and on.
Seestern, Maranez, "Proxima", etc, take the "copy the design and change the name" to an extreme, but is there a position where a little design copy is OK, but only up to a limit? "Just the tip" as it where?
Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Still amazed by this thing…
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Personally I can't see that at all but seeing as Kia's design team previously designed for the likes of BMW, Volkswagen, Audi, Cadillac etc, it wouldn't be surprising if Kia's bear a resemblance to other makes, especially Hyundai as they are the same company and use many of the same parts and body shells
Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
I hear you, but all they do is rip off last year's design - they are not coming up with new ones.snootydog wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:58 amPersonally I can't see that at all but seeing as Kia's design team previously designed for the likes of BMW, Volkswagen, Audi, Cadillac etc, it wouldn't be surprising if Kia's bear a resemblance to other makes, especially Hyundai as they are the same company and use many of the same parts and body shells
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
I have to say previous posts and threads here in years gone by have made me feel dirtier. Looks good.
Strength is = 2 or > than "tipping over a so- called smart car plastered in “Coexist” bumper stickers".
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Sitting here in Alabma, nearly directly between Hyundai and Kia's US manufacturing plants, I was laughing at the car discussion and wondering how anybody buys a car these days. Not only do car companies borrow from each other, designers float between them.
I will dive with a Homage, and have dove with the Duro, Invicta 8926 sub, Pagani 'Hulk', and Citizen Promaster Eco (no worries there) w/o issue. I want to test and take expendable homages on my dives...
So, back on topic, do you still feel dirty? Still have the watch? Still want to sell it? I want Doxa, and will someday, but won't dive with any 5+ figure watch.
I will dive with a Homage, and have dove with the Duro, Invicta 8926 sub, Pagani 'Hulk', and Citizen Promaster Eco (no worries there) w/o issue. I want to test and take expendable homages on my dives...
So, back on topic, do you still feel dirty? Still have the watch? Still want to sell it? I want Doxa, and will someday, but won't dive with any 5+ figure watch.
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Sitting here in Alabama, nearly directly between Hyundai and Kia's US manufacturing plants, I was laughing at the car discussion and wondering how anybody buys a car these days. Not only do car companies borrow from each other, designers float between them.
I will dive with a Homage, and have dove with the Duro, Invicta 8926 sub, Pagani 'Hulk', and Citizen Promaster Eco (no worries there) w/o issue. I want to test and take expendable homages on my dives...
So, back on topic, do you still feel dirty? Still have the watch? Still want to sell it? I want Doxa, and will someday, but won't dive with any 5+ figure watch.
I will dive with a Homage, and have dove with the Duro, Invicta 8926 sub, Pagani 'Hulk', and Citizen Promaster Eco (no worries there) w/o issue. I want to test and take expendable homages on my dives...
So, back on topic, do you still feel dirty? Still have the watch? Still want to sell it? I want Doxa, and will someday, but won't dive with any 5+ figure watch.
Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
I no longer have the watch and it served it purpose and gave me a positive feel for what a Doxa would wear like - I sold it to a fellow DWC’r shortly after starting this thread and my wife bought me a new 300T. Am I happy, would I do it again, was it worth it?!? The Seestern is a LOT of watch for the money!!! I am not comfortable wearing a “homage” that’s that close to the original, but here I am eating my own words as I admit that I’ve owned a MKII Blackwater that’s a direct knockoff (and even better) of a Benrus… I will say that the Doxa has better wrist presence and pop to me. The finishes are better on the Doxa, but the Seestern is a hell of a watch. BMartin Keogh wrote:Sitting here in Alabama, nearly directly between Hyundai and Kia's US manufacturing plants, I was laughing at the car discussion and wondering how anybody buys a car these days. Not only do car companies borrow from each other, designers float between them.
I will dive with a Homage, and have dove with the Duro, Invicta 8926 sub, Pagani 'Hulk', and Citizen Promaster Eco (no worries there) w/o issue. I want to test and take expendable homages on my dives...
So, back on topic, do you still feel dirty? Still have the watch? Still want to sell it? I want Doxa, and will someday, but won't dive with any 5+ figure watch.
Follow your heart and buy what you’re wallet is comfortable with.
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Last edited by Wario406 on Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Thanks for the info! I love the original, and I'd wear the homage on an actual dive. I have a friend who had a two tone Rolex date and went waterskiing. She came back, the watch didn't...
Fwiw, I only dive on my SKX/Citizen and < watches, my Seamaster and BSH NTH (one of 50) are too valuable. Even the cheapest are all on natos. Always.
Thanks again!
MK
Fwiw, I only dive on my SKX/Citizen and < watches, my Seamaster and BSH NTH (one of 50) are too valuable. Even the cheapest are all on natos. Always.
Thanks again!
MK
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
For me, it depends on the watch being, uh, "homaged".
I have no problem with an inexpensive Rolex Sub/Explorer knock off. You can't buy the real thing at retail and they're even nuts pre-owned. If I shell out $100-$500 for an Invicta or a Steinhart, I'm not taking money away from the Big R.
Omega? No knock offs, please. BUT . . . I would pay $50 for a MoonSwatch Chinese knock off. Swatch/Omega screwed the pooch with the roll out of those things and since I can't buy one on-line . . . F them. It's a plastic novelty watch that they've made impossible to buy. Hello Guangdong province.
I had a Seestern Doxa-a-like and I sold it. It was a helluva watch but . . . well, in that case I felt like I was hurting Doxa on a micro scale.
YMMV.
I have no problem with an inexpensive Rolex Sub/Explorer knock off. You can't buy the real thing at retail and they're even nuts pre-owned. If I shell out $100-$500 for an Invicta or a Steinhart, I'm not taking money away from the Big R.
Omega? No knock offs, please. BUT . . . I would pay $50 for a MoonSwatch Chinese knock off. Swatch/Omega screwed the pooch with the roll out of those things and since I can't buy one on-line . . . F them. It's a plastic novelty watch that they've made impossible to buy. Hello Guangdong province.
I had a Seestern Doxa-a-like and I sold it. It was a helluva watch but . . . well, in that case I felt like I was hurting Doxa on a micro scale.
YMMV.
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
I hear ya. I guess I don't mind, as long as I eventually get the real deal. So I'm going to order the Orange Seestern while I sell off some other watches and save up for the Doxa 300T like OP has above. Then I can wear one or both in the water... we'll see!
What's crazy is how the homage beat the original in some departments (lume, precision, etc.).
And then there's the theory that they all come from the same factories, some just get finished in their home destination...
I've had some Paganis and Parnis watches that were pretty dang good.
I need to check out the Chinese moon watch you described. I thought about getting some for my daughters, to no avail (the Swatch/Omega watch). So, maybe an homage...
What's crazy is how the homage beat the original in some departments (lume, precision, etc.).
And then there's the theory that they all come from the same factories, some just get finished in their home destination...
I've had some Paganis and Parnis watches that were pretty dang good.
I need to check out the Chinese moon watch you described. I thought about getting some for my daughters, to no avail (the Swatch/Omega watch). So, maybe an homage...
Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
The real one awesome - but YMMV. Like you I started with the Seestern. I wouldn't say it beats the original. The lume and precision on the Doxa are awesome - and I'll give a definite edge to Doxa for the finish too.Martin Keogh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:49 amI hear ya. I guess I don't mind, as long as I eventually get the real deal. So I'm going to order the Orange Seestern while I sell off some other watches and save up for the Doxa 300T like OP has above. Then I can wear one or both in the water... we'll see!
What's crazy is how the homage beat the original in some departments (lume, precision, etc.).
And then there's the theory that they all come from the same factories, some just get finished in their home destination...
I've had some Paganis and Parnis watches that were pretty dang good.
I need to check out the Chinese moon watch you described. I thought about getting some for my daughters, to no avail (the Swatch/Omega watch). So, maybe an homage...
Good luck on your journey! I look forward to your hearing about the path!
Last edited by Wario406 on Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Well, now that I've ordered the orange Seestern... I'm selling a bunch of other watches I don't wear for a real 300 sub.
Gotta be in orange (Pitt, of course) - but man that Caribbean in blue looks good. Decisions, decisions.
Rereading Cusslers first (2nd?) book Mediterranean Caper, he dons an Omega. Has anyone ever researched what that model was? 70's Seamaster?
Gotta be in orange (Pitt, of course) - but man that Caribbean in blue looks good. Decisions, decisions.
Rereading Cusslers first (2nd?) book Mediterranean Caper, he dons an Omega. Has anyone ever researched what that model was? 70's Seamaster?
Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Well, you also have to look at it as an affordability thing too.
I am fortunate enough to be able to afford Doxa, Omega, Rolex, etc. But there are collectors out there that really enjoy watches but can't afford the higher priced brands, they have to pay their mortgage, car payment, child care, health care and everything else inflation is throwing at them these days. I believe that Seestern and these other affordable brands is a great solution for a lot of watch guys.
I am fortunate enough to be able to afford Doxa, Omega, Rolex, etc. But there are collectors out there that really enjoy watches but can't afford the higher priced brands, they have to pay their mortgage, car payment, child care, health care and everything else inflation is throwing at them these days. I believe that Seestern and these other affordable brands is a great solution for a lot of watch guys.
Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
I realize that you and others have the resources to buy whatever you want. I still feel that buying a Seestern to get the feel of how a Doxa would wear was a good thing for me. I thought it was going to be way to small on my wrist and the Seestern proved to me in a cost effective and low risk way that that was not the case. And, I was able to flip it quickly. Id look at a Scurfa over a Seestern any day if I was just looking for a rugged and interesting watch to beat regularly.DEMO wrote:Well, you also have to look at it as an affordability thing too.
I am fortunate enough to be able to afford Doxa, Omega, Rolex, etc. But there are collectors out there that really enjoy watches but can't afford the higher priced brands, they have to pay their mortgage, car payment, child care, health care and everything else inflation is throwing at them these days. I believe that Seestern and these other affordable brands is a great solution for a lot of watch guys.
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
well putWario406 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:02 amThanks for that feedback! Your point #6 is so spot on…DenverBuff wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:52 amI'm not an "homage" guy either , but I did drop $175 on the blue Seestern. My rationale:
1. I've always liked the Doxas, but the design was always a bit of a novelty to me. Strictly a summer/vacation watch and frankly -as I live in Colorado - I wasn't ready to drop $2K on a pure dive watch I would wear only once in a while due to its obvious "hard core diver" design utility
2. Since I don't plan on buying a Doxa (yet), I don't feel like I'm taking money out of Doxa's pockets.
3. Yes, the Seestern is a blatant copy of the Doxa design and Seestern/Maranez/TFRog make no bones about it. But there's a bit of hypocrisy that goes with homages: when Steinhart/Squale/Ginault et. al. charge $500 and up for their "copies" using Swiss movements, they're viewed as "craftsmen bringing popular designs to the masses". When Seestern and Invicta do it at $150, they're design robbers.
4. I dunno. I suppose that the $2K Doxa charges for their watches is a function of their own unique design and the effort they expended to create it. So stipulated. And they are perhaps rightly pissed at the Chinese copies. But if the design patent has run, then . . . well, there's an argument there.
5. Watches are no different than high fashion clothing and accessories. As soon as Gucci, Armani, Vercase, Hermes et. al. come out with cool outfits and (especially) handbags at inflated, Beverly Hills prices . . . in a matter of weeks, you can buy very similar (if not direct copies) of that same stuff at your local Macy's or on-line .
6. Finally. The Seestern is a tremendous watch with insane specs for the $175 I paid.
No guilt here.
Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
I have to ask...
did Doxa really create the case shape before all the other companies?
I mean, in Art, we know that people like Van Gogh, Picasso, et Al., were inspired by other artists...musicians do the same...
so, I recall Seiko putting out designs in the late 60's that had very similar case shape as Doxa....give or take some differences... so then could Doxa not have "taken from" Seiko, design ideas from others?
I think of the Seiko 6138 case, the 6139's in many aspects... among other companies way back then,,,,
did Doxa really create the case shape before all the other companies?
I mean, in Art, we know that people like Van Gogh, Picasso, et Al., were inspired by other artists...musicians do the same...
so, I recall Seiko putting out designs in the late 60's that had very similar case shape as Doxa....give or take some differences... so then could Doxa not have "taken from" Seiko, design ideas from others?
I think of the Seiko 6138 case, the 6139's in many aspects... among other companies way back then,,,,
Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Several companies made similar cases back then, but you are missing the bigger picture with the Seastern, they pretty much copy the entire Doxa design, not just the case shape.docdoowop wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:04 pmI have to ask...
did Doxa really create the case shape before all the other companies?
I mean, in Art, we know that people like Van Gogh, Picasso, et Al., were inspired by other artists...musicians do the same...
so, I recall Seiko putting out designs in the late 60's that had very similar case shape as Doxa....give or take some differences... so then could Doxa not have "taken from" Seiko, design ideas from others?
I think of the Seiko 6138 case, the 6139's in many aspects... among other companies way back then,,,,
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
Bingo. Bleah.dnslater wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:44 amSeveral companies made similar cases back then, but you are missing the bigger picture with the Seastern, they pretty much copy the entire Doxa design, not just the case shape.docdoowop wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:04 pmI have to ask...
did Doxa really create the case shape before all the other companies?
I mean, in Art, we know that people like Van Gogh, Picasso, et Al., were inspired by other artists...musicians do the same...
so, I recall Seiko putting out designs in the late 60's that had very similar case shape as Doxa....give or take some differences... so then could Doxa not have "taken from" Seiko, design ideas from others?
I think of the Seiko 6138 case, the 6139's in many aspects... among other companies way back then,,,,
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Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!
I've never purchased a Seestern, but I bought a Maranez for its bracelet to use on my Synchron Military.
Honest answer, the Maranez is a decent little watch. The movement is basic, but the fit and finish is decent. The bezel action is crisp. The lume is well applied and long lasting. The bracelet is better than good to be honest.
Is it as good as my Doxa 300T? No, definitely not. Is the Doxa $1,500 "better" than the Maranez? Hard to argue that one.
I can certainly understand the perspective of it being distasteful to copy another brand's design, but I'm not militant about it.
I mean, I wear jeans that were not made by Levi's. I wear golf shirts from brands other than Izod. I shoot a Sig P230 (not a Walther PPK).
I can't think of any other market where a brand can make a relatively unchanged design for 60+ years and not expect copy cats to exist.
In some ways, I am happy brands such as Seestern and Maranez exist. The real issue is the market for mechanical watches is diminishing. The market needs "gateway" brands to get new people interested in the idea of a mechanical watch.
Honest answer, the Maranez is a decent little watch. The movement is basic, but the fit and finish is decent. The bezel action is crisp. The lume is well applied and long lasting. The bracelet is better than good to be honest.
Is it as good as my Doxa 300T? No, definitely not. Is the Doxa $1,500 "better" than the Maranez? Hard to argue that one.
I can certainly understand the perspective of it being distasteful to copy another brand's design, but I'm not militant about it.
I mean, I wear jeans that were not made by Levi's. I wear golf shirts from brands other than Izod. I shoot a Sig P230 (not a Walther PPK).
I can't think of any other market where a brand can make a relatively unchanged design for 60+ years and not expect copy cats to exist.
In some ways, I am happy brands such as Seestern and Maranez exist. The real issue is the market for mechanical watches is diminishing. The market needs "gateway" brands to get new people interested in the idea of a mechanical watch.
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