Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Come on in and introduce yourself!
General watch talk.
User avatar
Wario406
Posts: 4982
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
Name: Mike
Location: I can see mountains

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:26 pm

hoppyjr wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:10 pm
Wario406 wrote:
hoppyjr wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:41 pm
Henryj wrote:I get that you bought a Seestern. I get that you feel dirty. But, correlation is not causation.
Agreed. I believe he feels dirty because of the stockings, panties, and leather collar with “slut” in rhinestones.

No wristwatch should make you feel dirty.
Do we know each other?!? :dance:
Image
hahahaha!!!

Image
It is better to know how to learn than to know.
Dr. Seuss

User avatar
dnslater
Posts: 6804
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:52 pm
Name: Nick
Location: Indiana, USA

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by dnslater » Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:36 am

Ryeguy wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:58 am
What I find interesting from an academic perspective is whether this type of position (not you specifically, but generally speaking) is consistent across all commercial products?

For example, how many Glock, Browning, or AR-15 design copies are there out there? Car manufacturers crib design elements all the time, as do consumer electronics companies. The list goes on and on.

Seestern, Maranez, "Proxima", etc, take the "copy the design and change the name" to an extreme, but is there a position where a little design copy is OK, but only up to a limit? "Just the tip" as it where?
Definitely getting academic, we all have different places to draw the line. Design is all derivative, but for me I find the design/engineering the most interesting aspect of the watch hobby. For most "products" I value original design over copies at a discount. I might take a different line on things like pharmaceuticals... thankfully Pfizer never had a patent on penicillin and it is cheap and easy for everyone to replicate.... I don't think watches play the same role in contributing to the greater good.

AtomicTom
Nuclear Personality!!!!
Posts: 13719
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:59 am
Name: Tom

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by AtomicTom » Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:00 am

Wario406 wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:07 am
AtomicTom wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:53 am

You are very very welcome Wario. :) Honestly love the way you think. :salute:

And this really IS a fun conversation. So thank YOU for starting it. Here's
hoping it helps you enjoy not only the Seestern, and possible Doxa in the
future. But the entire hobby as well.
:cheers: :thumbsup: :cheers:

:) :salute: :grin:

User avatar
Wario406
Posts: 4982
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
Name: Mike
Location: I can see mountains

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:26 am

Still amazed by this thing… Image


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is better to know how to learn than to know.
Dr. Seuss

User avatar
snootydog
Jagermaster
Posts: 9957
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:49 am
Name: Andy
Location: Littlehampton.West Sussex. England

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by snootydog » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:58 am

Wario406 wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:27 am
rather then doing what KIA does when it blatantly rips off every other car manufacturer on the planet as it reuses their designs with every new model they produce.
Personally I can't see that at all but seeing as Kia's design team previously designed for the likes of BMW, Volkswagen, Audi, Cadillac etc, it wouldn't be surprising if Kia's bear a resemblance to other makes, especially Hyundai as they are the same company and use many of the same parts and body shells :lol:
Andy :uj:
Image

User avatar
Wario406
Posts: 4982
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
Name: Mike
Location: I can see mountains

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:46 pm

snootydog wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:58 am
Wario406 wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:27 am
rather then doing what KIA does when it blatantly rips off every other car manufacturer on the planet as it reuses their designs with every new model they produce.
Personally I can't see that at all but seeing as Kia's design team previously designed for the likes of BMW, Volkswagen, Audi, Cadillac etc, it wouldn't be surprising if Kia's bear a resemblance to other makes, especially Hyundai as they are the same company and use many of the same parts and body shells :lol:
I hear you, but all they do is rip off last year's design - they are not coming up with new ones.
It is better to know how to learn than to know.
Dr. Seuss

User avatar
93 Turbo
Posts: 4585
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:48 pm
Name: Jules
Location: Oz

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by 93 Turbo » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:29 pm

I have to say previous posts and threads here in years gone by have made me feel dirtier. Looks good.
Strength is = 2 or > than "tipping over a so- called smart car plastered in “Coexist” bumper stickers".

Pat McNamara.

Martin Keogh
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Martin Keogh » Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:26 pm

Sitting here in Alabma, nearly directly between Hyundai and Kia's US manufacturing plants, I was laughing at the car discussion and wondering how anybody buys a car these days. Not only do car companies borrow from each other, designers float between them.

I will dive with a Homage, and have dove with the Duro, Invicta 8926 sub, Pagani 'Hulk', and Citizen Promaster Eco (no worries there) w/o issue. I want to test and take expendable homages on my dives...

So, back on topic, do you still feel dirty? Still have the watch? Still want to sell it? I want Doxa, and will someday, but won't dive with any 5+ figure watch.

Martin Keogh
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Martin Keogh » Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:26 pm

Sitting here in Alabama, nearly directly between Hyundai and Kia's US manufacturing plants, I was laughing at the car discussion and wondering how anybody buys a car these days. Not only do car companies borrow from each other, designers float between them.

I will dive with a Homage, and have dove with the Duro, Invicta 8926 sub, Pagani 'Hulk', and Citizen Promaster Eco (no worries there) w/o issue. I want to test and take expendable homages on my dives...

So, back on topic, do you still feel dirty? Still have the watch? Still want to sell it? I want Doxa, and will someday, but won't dive with any 5+ figure watch.

User avatar
Wario406
Posts: 4982
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
Name: Mike
Location: I can see mountains

Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:45 pm

Martin Keogh wrote:Sitting here in Alabama, nearly directly between Hyundai and Kia's US manufacturing plants, I was laughing at the car discussion and wondering how anybody buys a car these days. Not only do car companies borrow from each other, designers float between them.

I will dive with a Homage, and have dove with the Duro, Invicta 8926 sub, Pagani 'Hulk', and Citizen Promaster Eco (no worries there) w/o issue. I want to test and take expendable homages on my dives...

So, back on topic, do you still feel dirty? Still have the watch? Still want to sell it? I want Doxa, and will someday, but won't dive with any 5+ figure watch.
I no longer have the watch and it served it purpose and gave me a positive feel for what a Doxa would wear like - I sold it to a fellow DWC’r shortly after starting this thread and my wife bought me a new 300T. Am I happy, would I do it again, was it worth it?!? The Seestern is a LOT of watch for the money!!! I am not comfortable wearing a “homage” that’s that close to the original, but here I am eating my own words as I admit that I’ve owned a MKII Blackwater that’s a direct knockoff (and even better) of a Benrus… I will say that the Doxa has better wrist presence and pop to me. The finishes are better on the Doxa, but the Seestern is a hell of a watch. B

Follow your heart and buy what you’re wallet is comfortable with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk toImage
Last edited by Wario406 on Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is better to know how to learn than to know.
Dr. Seuss

Martin Keogh
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Martin Keogh » Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:56 pm

Thanks for the info! I love the original, and I'd wear the homage on an actual dive. I have a friend who had a two tone Rolex date and went waterskiing. She came back, the watch didn't...

Fwiw, I only dive on my SKX/Citizen and < watches, my Seamaster and BSH NTH (one of 50) are too valuable. Even the cheapest are all on natos. Always.

Thanks again!

MK

User avatar
DenverBuff
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:40 pm
Name: Vic
Location: Denver

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by DenverBuff » Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:45 am

For me, it depends on the watch being, uh, "homaged".

I have no problem with an inexpensive Rolex Sub/Explorer knock off. You can't buy the real thing at retail and they're even nuts pre-owned. If I shell out $100-$500 for an Invicta or a Steinhart, I'm not taking money away from the Big R.

Omega? No knock offs, please. BUT . . . I would pay $50 for a MoonSwatch Chinese knock off. Swatch/Omega screwed the pooch with the roll out of those things and since I can't buy one on-line . . . F them. It's a plastic novelty watch that they've made impossible to buy. Hello Guangdong province.

I had a Seestern Doxa-a-like and I sold it. It was a helluva watch but . . . well, in that case I felt like I was hurting Doxa on a micro scale.

YMMV.

Martin Keogh
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Martin Keogh » Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:49 am

I hear ya. I guess I don't mind, as long as I eventually get the real deal. So I'm going to order the Orange Seestern while I sell off some other watches and save up for the Doxa 300T like OP has above. Then I can wear one or both in the water... we'll see!

What's crazy is how the homage beat the original in some departments (lume, precision, etc.).

And then there's the theory that they all come from the same factories, some just get finished in their home destination...

I've had some Paganis and Parnis watches that were pretty dang good.

I need to check out the Chinese moon watch you described. I thought about getting some for my daughters, to no avail (the Swatch/Omega watch). So, maybe an homage...

User avatar
Wario406
Posts: 4982
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
Name: Mike
Location: I can see mountains

Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:31 pm

Martin Keogh wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:49 am
I hear ya. I guess I don't mind, as long as I eventually get the real deal. So I'm going to order the Orange Seestern while I sell off some other watches and save up for the Doxa 300T like OP has above. Then I can wear one or both in the water... we'll see!

What's crazy is how the homage beat the original in some departments (lume, precision, etc.).

And then there's the theory that they all come from the same factories, some just get finished in their home destination...

I've had some Paganis and Parnis watches that were pretty dang good.

I need to check out the Chinese moon watch you described. I thought about getting some for my daughters, to no avail (the Swatch/Omega watch). So, maybe an homage...
The real one awesome - but YMMV. Like you I started with the Seestern. I wouldn't say it beats the original. The lume and precision on the Doxa are awesome - and I'll give a definite edge to Doxa for the finish too.

Good luck on your journey! I look forward to your hearing about the path! :thumbsup:
Last edited by Wario406 on Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is better to know how to learn than to know.
Dr. Seuss

Martin Keogh
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Martin Keogh » Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:52 am

Well, now that I've ordered the orange Seestern... I'm selling a bunch of other watches I don't wear for a real 300 sub.

Gotta be in orange (Pitt, of course) - but man that Caribbean in blue looks good. Decisions, decisions.

Rereading Cusslers first (2nd?) book Mediterranean Caper, he dons an Omega. Has anyone ever researched what that model was? 70's Seamaster?

User avatar
DEMO
Posts: 6040
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:41 pm
Location: The Blue Planet

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by DEMO » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:46 am

Well, you also have to look at it as an affordability thing too.

I am fortunate enough to be able to afford Doxa, Omega, Rolex, etc. But there are collectors out there that really enjoy watches but can't afford the higher priced brands, they have to pay their mortgage, car payment, child care, health care and everything else inflation is throwing at them these days. I believe that Seestern and these other affordable brands is a great solution for a lot of watch guys.
Image

User avatar
Wario406
Posts: 4982
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 am
Name: Mike
Location: I can see mountains

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Wario406 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:55 am

DEMO wrote:Well, you also have to look at it as an affordability thing too.

I am fortunate enough to be able to afford Doxa, Omega, Rolex, etc. But there are collectors out there that really enjoy watches but can't afford the higher priced brands, they have to pay their mortgage, car payment, child care, health care and everything else inflation is throwing at them these days. I believe that Seestern and these other affordable brands is a great solution for a lot of watch guys.
I realize that you and others have the resources to buy whatever you want. I still feel that buying a Seestern to get the feel of how a Doxa would wear was a good thing for me. I thought it was going to be way to small on my wrist and the Seestern proved to me in a cost effective and low risk way that that was not the case. And, I was able to flip it quickly. Id look at a Scurfa over a Seestern any day if I was just looking for a rugged and interesting watch to beat regularly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is better to know how to learn than to know.
Dr. Seuss

docdoowop
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:18 pm
Name: chris

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by docdoowop » Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:41 pm

Wario406 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:02 am
DenverBuff wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:52 am
I'm not an "homage" guy either , but I did drop $175 on the blue Seestern. My rationale:

1. I've always liked the Doxas, but the design was always a bit of a novelty to me. Strictly a summer/vacation watch and frankly -as I live in Colorado - I wasn't ready to drop $2K on a pure dive watch I would wear only once in a while due to its obvious "hard core diver" design utility

2. Since I don't plan on buying a Doxa (yet), I don't feel like I'm taking money out of Doxa's pockets.

3. Yes, the Seestern is a blatant copy of the Doxa design and Seestern/Maranez/TFRog make no bones about it. But there's a bit of hypocrisy that goes with homages: when Steinhart/Squale/Ginault et. al. charge $500 and up for their "copies" using Swiss movements, they're viewed as "craftsmen bringing popular designs to the masses". When Seestern and Invicta do it at $150, they're design robbers.

4. I dunno. I suppose that the $2K Doxa charges for their watches is a function of their own unique design and the effort they expended to create it. So stipulated. And they are perhaps rightly pissed at the Chinese copies. But if the design patent has run, then . . . well, there's an argument there.

5. Watches are no different than high fashion clothing and accessories. As soon as Gucci, Armani, Vercase, Hermes et. al. come out with cool outfits and (especially) handbags at inflated, Beverly Hills prices . . . in a matter of weeks, you can buy very similar (if not direct copies) of that same stuff at your local Macy's or on-line .

6. Finally. The Seestern is a tremendous watch with insane specs for the $175 I paid.

No guilt here.
Thanks for that feedback! Your point #6 is so spot on…
well put

docdoowop
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:18 pm
Name: chris

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by docdoowop » Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:04 pm

I have to ask...
did Doxa really create the case shape before all the other companies?
I mean, in Art, we know that people like Van Gogh, Picasso, et Al., were inspired by other artists...musicians do the same...

so, I recall Seiko putting out designs in the late 60's that had very similar case shape as Doxa....give or take some differences... so then could Doxa not have "taken from" Seiko, design ideas from others?

I think of the Seiko 6138 case, the 6139's in many aspects... among other companies way back then,,,,

User avatar
dnslater
Posts: 6804
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:52 pm
Name: Nick
Location: Indiana, USA

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by dnslater » Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:44 am

docdoowop wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:04 pm
I have to ask...
did Doxa really create the case shape before all the other companies?
I mean, in Art, we know that people like Van Gogh, Picasso, et Al., were inspired by other artists...musicians do the same...

so, I recall Seiko putting out designs in the late 60's that had very similar case shape as Doxa....give or take some differences... so then could Doxa not have "taken from" Seiko, design ideas from others?

I think of the Seiko 6138 case, the 6139's in many aspects... among other companies way back then,,,,
Several companies made similar cases back then, but you are missing the bigger picture with the Seastern, they pretty much copy the entire Doxa design, not just the case shape.

User avatar
demer03
Current Forecast: Vintage Doxa
Posts: 19575
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:41 pm
Name: Mike
Location: Lake Michigami

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by demer03 » Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:52 am

dnslater wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:44 am
docdoowop wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:04 pm
I have to ask...
did Doxa really create the case shape before all the other companies?
I mean, in Art, we know that people like Van Gogh, Picasso, et Al., were inspired by other artists...musicians do the same...

so, I recall Seiko putting out designs in the late 60's that had very similar case shape as Doxa....give or take some differences... so then could Doxa not have "taken from" Seiko, design ideas from others?

I think of the Seiko 6138 case, the 6139's in many aspects... among other companies way back then,,,,
Several companies made similar cases back then, but you are missing the bigger picture with the Seastern, they pretty much copy the entire Doxa design, not just the case shape.
Bingo. Bleah.
Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams
The islands and bays are for sportsmen

Image

User avatar
Ryeguy
Posts: 5519
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:03 pm
Name: Chris
Location: Rye

Re: Seestern... why do I feel dirty?!

Post by Ryeguy » Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:54 am

I've never purchased a Seestern, but I bought a Maranez for its bracelet to use on my Synchron Military.

Honest answer, the Maranez is a decent little watch. The movement is basic, but the fit and finish is decent. The bezel action is crisp. The lume is well applied and long lasting. The bracelet is better than good to be honest.

Is it as good as my Doxa 300T? No, definitely not. Is the Doxa $1,500 "better" than the Maranez? Hard to argue that one.

I can certainly understand the perspective of it being distasteful to copy another brand's design, but I'm not militant about it.

I mean, I wear jeans that were not made by Levi's. I wear golf shirts from brands other than Izod. I shoot a Sig P230 (not a Walther PPK).

I can't think of any other market where a brand can make a relatively unchanged design for 60+ years and not expect copy cats to exist.

In some ways, I am happy brands such as Seestern and Maranez exist. The real issue is the market for mechanical watches is diminishing. The market needs "gateway" brands to get new people interested in the idea of a mechanical watch.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: amckiwi, jeckyll, raf42 and 1489 guests