Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

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Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Captdave » Sun May 08, 2022 6:40 pm

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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by deepcdvr » Sun May 08, 2022 7:01 pm

Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by BBK357 » Sun May 08, 2022 7:49 pm

The guy in uniform looks like an MS13 gang member with all those tats
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Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Captdave » Sun May 08, 2022 9:37 pm

deepcdvr wrote:Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
The incidents of the McCain and Fitzgerald show clear issues with the professional qualifications and training as well as skill and experience of the naval officers and the chain of command. They also show a clear lack of accountability by the Navy for the incidents. There’s a saying in the merchant marine “if it’s gray, stay away”. In that sense I’d say the state of the Navy is less than satisfactory with regard to their vessels, crews and their chain of command.


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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Captdave » Sun May 08, 2022 9:43 pm

deepcdvr wrote:Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
What are your thoughts on the allegations that the Navy lied to congress?


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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Ryeguy » Mon May 09, 2022 3:46 am

BBK357 wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 7:49 pm
The guy in uniform looks like an MS13 gang member with all those tats
Ha! I was thinking the same thing!

On a side note, if you are ever looking to read an interesting perspective on our DoD activities (with a more USAF / aircraft perspective), sign up for “The Merge”, a weekly newsletter emailed to you. It’s an interesting read: https://sparklp.co/fdac6c2c

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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by AtomicTom » Mon May 09, 2022 10:34 am

Really is upsetting Dave, and it's embarrassing for so many reasons. You, or we
would think the Navy was as good as impressive as it ever was. However, in a
strange way, it sounds like it was better, or at least better run years ago. And
it's a shame because the great men, and women in the Navy are as impressive
as ever, so they deserve better, or the best honestly.

Want to thank you for sharing this with us. I didn't even know about any of it.

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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by hoppyjr » Mon May 09, 2022 11:36 am

I can’t help but think the politically correct “woke” mentality has influenced leadership choices, which can’t be a good thing. I’m sure most Sailors and junior officers are well intended, solid people, but the tone at the top matters and this likely contributes to issues down the line.

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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Henryj » Mon May 09, 2022 12:31 pm

deepcdvr wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 7:01 pm
Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
Dave, at times, seems to have a bit of a hard-on for the Navy.
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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by gwells » Mon May 09, 2022 12:53 pm

hoppyjr wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 11:36 am
I can’t help but think the politically correct “woke” mentality has influenced leadership choices, which can’t be a good thing. I’m sure most Sailors and junior officers are well intended, solid people, but the tone at the top matters and this likely contributes to issues down the line.
i'm a bit perplexed why "woke mentality" would have anything to do with whether the Navy should have fireboats in their fleet or not or whether they lied to congress. seems irrelevant.

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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by hoppyjr » Mon May 09, 2022 1:51 pm

gwells wrote:
hoppyjr wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 11:36 am
I can’t help but think the politically correct “woke” mentality has influenced leadership choices, which can’t be a good thing. I’m sure most Sailors and junior officers are well intended, solid people, but the tone at the top matters and this likely contributes to issues down the line.
i'm a bit perplexed why "woke mentality" would have anything to do with whether the Navy should have fireboats in their fleet or not or whether they lied to congress. seems irrelevant.
I just like giving the left a ration of crap whenever possible.

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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Captdave » Mon May 09, 2022 3:19 pm

Henryj wrote:
deepcdvr wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 7:01 pm
Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
Dave, at times, seems to have a bit of a hard-on for the Navy.
Not at all. Just would like them to be proficient and professional in their navigation and interaction with civilian vessel traffic. As merchant mariners were trained and licensed to international and Coast Guard standards. The Navy is trained and certified for watch standing and navigation to Navy standards only and don’t believe that the rules of the road etc…apply to them.


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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Captdave » Mon May 09, 2022 3:19 pm

hoppyjr wrote:
gwells wrote:
hoppyjr wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 11:36 am
I can’t help but think the politically correct “woke” mentality has influenced leadership choices, which can’t be a good thing. I’m sure most Sailors and junior officers are well intended, solid people, but the tone at the top matters and this likely contributes to issues down the line.
i'm a bit perplexed why "woke mentality" would have anything to do with whether the Navy should have fireboats in their fleet or not or whether they lied to congress. seems irrelevant.
I just like giving the left a ration of crap whenever possible.
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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Captdave » Mon May 09, 2022 3:25 pm

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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by HapaHapa » Mon May 09, 2022 5:44 pm

Captdave wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 3:19 pm
Henryj wrote:
deepcdvr wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 7:01 pm
Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
Dave, at times, seems to have a bit of a hard-on for the Navy.
Not at all. Just would like them to be proficient and professional in their navigation and interaction with civilian vessel traffic. As merchant mariners were trained and licensed to international and Coast Guard standards. The Navy is trained and certified for watch standing and navigation to Navy standards only and don’t believe that the rules of the road etc…apply to them.


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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by deepcdvr » Mon May 09, 2022 5:56 pm

Captdave wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 9:37 pm
deepcdvr wrote:Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
The incidents of the McCain and Fitzgerald show clear issues with the professional qualifications and training as well as skill and experience of the naval officers and the chain of command.


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I do agree that in those cases, training was less than it should have been and the crew was very tired (I’ve been there). I don’t know who lied or to whom about the incidents, but I’ve been on accident investigation teams for both military and civilian mishaps, and there is plenty of CYA by all parties… I suspect the highly professional merchant marines fk up at times as well and try to cover it up.. maybe not?

https://gcaptain.com/category/accidents/
Last edited by deepcdvr on Mon May 09, 2022 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by deepcdvr » Mon May 09, 2022 5:57 pm

Captdave wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 9:43 pm
deepcdvr wrote:Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
What are your thoughts on the allegations that the Navy lied to congress?


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Honestly, I don’t know anything about it - although lying to congress seems to be what people do
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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by deepcdvr » Mon May 09, 2022 6:00 pm

Captdave wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 3:19 pm
Henryj wrote:
deepcdvr wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 7:01 pm
Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
Dave, at times, seems to have a bit of a hard-on for the Navy.
Not at all. Just would like them to be proficient and professional in their navigation and interaction with civilian vessel traffic. As merchant mariners were trained and licensed to international and Coast Guard standards. The Navy is trained and certified for watch standing and navigation to Navy standards only and don’t believe that the rules of the road etc…apply to them.


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Lol I won’t take the bait. I’ll only say that I was a Sailor for three decades and have been a government guy who still goes to sea frequently (was on sub a couple of weeks ago). I have a very different opinion than yours.
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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Captdave » Mon May 09, 2022 7:08 pm

deepcdvr wrote:
Captdave wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 3:19 pm
Henryj wrote:
deepcdvr wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 7:01 pm
Weirdly written article a and funny picture (I know the guy in uniform)

I don’t know anything about fireboats or what the guy promised, though. Either way the author sounds really pissed off. :shrug:


I would not call this the “status of the U.S, Navy”, though - I think that’s just a slight bit of generalization or even hyperbole

;)
Dave, at times, seems to have a bit of a hard-on for the Navy.
Not at all. Just would like them to be proficient and professional in their navigation and interaction with civilian vessel traffic. As merchant mariners were trained and licensed to international and Coast Guard standards. The Navy is trained and certified for watch standing and navigation to Navy standards only and don’t believe that the rules of the road etc…apply to them.


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Lol I won’t take the bait. I’ll only say that I was a Sailor for three decades and have been a government guy who still goes to sea frequently (was on sub a couple of weeks ago). I have a very different opinion than yours.
Paul, no disrespect to you at all. I wasn’t trying to bait you or anyone else. I was just stating what I’ve observed over 30 plus years as a ships officer and pilot interacting with and being on the bridge of naval vessels in pilotage waters. In the merchant marine there are Coast Guard regulations for required rest for crews. It’s 12 hours of watch time in a 24 hour period. It’s designed to prevent fatigue. Does it? Not when you’re working 6 on 6 off for months at a time and get even less rest when in port conducting cargo operations. I don’t know what the rest requirements are for Naval bridge/navigational officers and crews.

Yes the merchant marine has its share of incidents and associated cover ups and CYA behavior. In fact I’m dealing with such an incident right now that I was involved in. I won’t discuss any details but I immediately retain counsel and preserve evidence and provide all requested information to Coast Guard investigators. I do not cover up or lie or misconstrue anything. The only way to make a situation worse is to lie or try to cover up. The primary difference between the Navy and the merchant marine accident/incident investigations is that the Coast Guard and/or NTSB and in many instances state pilotage boards investigate merchant accidents and the Navy investigates Naval accidents. There is not an independent objective investigation like with merchant vessels. In closing the Navy is the only place I’m aware of that an aviator is considered competent to command a 1,000 foot long vessel. It certainly doesn’t go the opposite way with surface or subsurface officers given command of aircraft. This in my opinion, exemplifies how the Navy views the importance of training and qualifying it’s ships officers.

Thank you for your information and input I always appreciate seeing the other side from someone who knows what they’re speaking about and has experience.


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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by deepcdvr » Mon May 09, 2022 7:46 pm

No sweat Dave - good luck with your case!

After the ship accidents the Navy changed the watch rotations at sea and new schedules seem to ensure Sailors are getting more sleep. Is it perfect? No - but it’s something we take seriously. As far as training, I think we’re the best in the business - we don’t just train to be “watchstanders”.

Yes the Navy investigates the Navy, but as a guy that has been on the receiving end of a few investigations and eventually on teams that conduct them, I can assure you they are thorough, fact finding and often brutal. I could list a dozen investigations off the top of my head in which those involved lost careers or ended up in jail… I believe we relieve a dozen or more commanding officers every year - some years up to 30 - for example.
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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Captdave » Mon May 09, 2022 7:56 pm

deepcdvr wrote:No sweat Dave - good luck with your case!

After the ship accidents the Navy changed the watch rotations at sea and new schedules seem to ensure Sailors are getting more sleep. Is it perfect? No - but it’s something we take seriously. As far as training, I think we’re the best in the business - we don’t just train to be “watchstanders”.

Yes the Navy investigates the Navy, but as a guy that has been on the receiving end of a few investigations and eventually on teams that conduct them, I can assure you they are thorough, fact finding and often brutal. I could list a dozen investigations off the top of my head in which those involved lost careers or ended up in jail… I believe we relieve a dozen or more commanding officers every year - some years up to 30 - for example.
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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by toxicavenger » Mon May 09, 2022 8:33 pm

deepcdvr wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 7:46 pm
I can assure you they are thorough, fact finding and often brutal. I could list a dozen investigations off the top of my head in which those involved lost careers or ended up in jail… I believe we relieve a dozen or more commanding officers every year - some years up to 30 - for example.
i wish the other services would do that. :banghead:

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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by HapaHapa » Mon May 09, 2022 8:39 pm

deepcdvr wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 7:46 pm
No sweat Dave - good luck with your case!

After the ship accidents the Navy changed the watch rotations at sea and new schedules seem to ensure Sailors are getting more sleep. Is it perfect? No - but it’s something we take seriously. As far as training, I think we’re the best in the business - we don’t just train to be “watchstanders”.

Yes the Navy investigates the Navy, but as a guy that has been on the receiving end of a few investigations and eventually on teams that conduct them, I can assure you they are thorough, fact finding and often brutal. I could list a dozen investigations off the top of my head in which those involved lost careers or ended up in jail… I believe we relieve a dozen or more commanding officers every year - some years up to 30 - for example.
Is that in of itself an issue, or is a dozen a negligible fraction?
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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by Ryeguy » Tue May 10, 2022 4:40 am

HapaHapa wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 8:39 pm
deepcdvr wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 7:46 pm
No sweat Dave - good luck with your case!

After the ship accidents the Navy changed the watch rotations at sea and new schedules seem to ensure Sailors are getting more sleep. Is it perfect? No - but it’s something we take seriously. As far as training, I think we’re the best in the business - we don’t just train to be “watchstanders”.

Yes the Navy investigates the Navy, but as a guy that has been on the receiving end of a few investigations and eventually on teams that conduct them, I can assure you they are thorough, fact finding and often brutal. I could list a dozen investigations off the top of my head in which those involved lost careers or ended up in jail… I believe we relieve a dozen or more commanding officers every year - some years up to 30 - for example.
Is that in of itself an issue, or is a dozen a negligible fraction?
I was curious about this myself so did a little Google-Fu research.

I’m assuming we’re only looking at O-6’s and O-7’s, there are about 3,300 of them.

Now, not all O-6’s are in a “command” position (whether that be a vessel or a facility). Many are likely in administration positions at various bases. There also could some O-5’s who are actually in a “command” position. Bottom line is the actual number is kind of hard to nail down using rank alone.

Between ships and bases in the US Navy, we are looking at maybe 600 (each having a “commander”. I think this might be a more reasonable number to use versus number of people of rank.

As of April, the USN has relieved 4 officers of command, but not all were for errors they personally caused. One guy got dinged because he was going to turn a captured AK-47 into a plaque for his ship (which seems like a good idea to me, but apparently is frowned upon by Navy leadership).

While a 20% attrition rate seems high, I also consider the Navy perspective that the commander is responsible for the actions of their crew. A dud officer under your command could sink your career.

@ Paul- one blog I read stated there were actually more O-6’s in the Navy than Master Chief’s! It kinda makes you wonder why they get the good parking spots at the NEX.

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Re: Interesting perspective on the status of the US Navy

Post by River Rat » Tue May 10, 2022 5:59 am

The Navy Has been screwing up anyone paying attention on the carrier USS Goerge Washing yard period going on 5 years four years under one president's administration and one year on another. Were the navy so cheap they don't supply the duty section with a bus so when the crew parks their cars it's a 45-minute walk to the ship. Tell you a 5-year yard period unheard of. Were some crew do there whole enlistment with out going to sea tied to the pier or dry dock. And forced to live the lower E-1 to E-3 that is with no working bathrooms close to berthing they sleep at living on a ship torn apart and they are the ones doing all the dirty work in the yards. Let me tell you about being in the yards. When I went into the yards was when I did a ship transfer from one to another might of picked another but my detailer lied and did not tell me I was E-3 at the time so I got the shit jobs but the Navy was smarter then it was at pier 54 in SF the new giants stadium would be built later by were we were at the Navy had berthing barge next to the ship so working bathrooms and living conditions were OK on that since nothing works on a ship torn apart during the yards and parking lot across the street a short walk. Now when your E-3 and below you get the shit jobs in the yards chipping paint and painting. You use these tools for chipping paint needle guns and deck crawlers and a weird one a knuckle buster and grinders the paint dust and chips you would breath in so when you blow your noise all this black stuff would come out the king post the cargo boom were attached to and the unrep transfer post were maybe 250 ft high or more at the top a flat piece went across to connect two of them post so we would tie a cargo net under it so we could crawl under it to chip and paint and hope it don't come lose and we go splat on the steel deck below. Well, I got tired of chipping paint so volunteered for the spray paint team the chief put me in charge of it he would give me a list of compartments to spray paint we would spray about 5-6 5 Gallion cans of paint a day a lot of paint you would put butter around you eye's so the paint comes off easier the coveralls would get stiff after a while from dried paint. Bad thing about the chief I worked for on the spray team he was in a different division my team would get done early sometimes I would go to that chief any one from his division he gave liberty to that getting off work early I went back to my division and they put me back to chipping paint that sucked balls. We had respirators since we were spraying in enclosed spaces but the fumes got to me after a while I started to spit blood out when I coughed so asked to go back to chipping paint. I was lucky about a year of that then we were out of the yards and out to sea. Now Imagin 5 years of that and worse living conditions than I had how wonder the USS Goerge Washington had three suicides in a month. Tell you when you tired after chipping paint all day a 45 minute walk to your car would suck balls. The crew that does the dirty work deserve better living condition in the yards. I wrote my congressman about this it had me pissed because I know how it would feel. What happened to the berthing barges the Navy use to have guess they decommissioned them without replacing them having one next to the ship in a yard period sure improves living conditions. And a bus for the duty section to drive crew to and from the parking lot. And the USS Goerge Washinton should of been out of the yards before a new President 4 years of a not working carrier and one year of a none working carrier with another President. Should of been out of the yards in about 3 years.
Last edited by River Rat on Tue May 10, 2022 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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