4Runner? GX? Land Cruiser?

[HapaHapa]

Speaking of holding value, has anyone taken a look at the prices on last generation Honda Fits? It’s crazy how much a low mileage one will go for.

Funny as I just did a search yesterday. My youngest kid just got his license yesterday and wants to get a used manual hatchback or sedan. I was trying to steer him towards a fit but he doesn't like them. He is looking at old VW's and Audi's. Guess I will have some oil spots on my new driveway.

I don't know if it's the same in the US, but in Oz there is a Toyota tax. A bit like Rolex, the entry price is inflated but they hold that value so the turn-over price is solid.

When I bought my Isuzu in 2018 the equivalent Toyota (called the Prado here) was 20K more. Looking at current resale, that gap is still there. So there would have been no benefit in my tying up that extra 20K. My Isuzu has been flawless whilst I note Toyota have had a bunch of recalls.

Toyota have historically made good cars...they are no longer as good as they used to be but that hasn't impacted on the amount of kool-aid flowing around them. IMO Toyota peaked with the 80 series Landcruiser.

90's Toyota/Honda are always discussed as having peaked because they were reliable AND this was before cars started being filled with technology... and Toyota/Honda kept it simpler than the equivalent GM, Ford, etc... who liked all kinds of electronic buttons. By the numbers, Toyota/Lexus are still king in reliability compared to the competition.... its just that consumers demand a lot more stuff in their cars which creates more opportunities for issues.

Look at Acura TL for manual sedan.

[dnslater]

Yeah, I expect my Isuzu will be the last 'dumb' car I own. Everything is 'smart' now and that just means a ton more stuff that can go wrong.

I think long term after EV's go through a few generations of solid state battery technology evolution (probably 20-30 years out) we will see them settle in as being more reliable than ICE cars ever were. The technology is not mature now... but as an example Rivian just came out with the second generation of their truck and consolidated a lot of the electronics eliminating over a mile of wiring and 2/3 of their ECU's. A basic AC motor and solid state battery has little that can go wrong once the cooling is figured out.

[Ryeguy]

I can’t get a 4Runner off of my brain, especially before the new generation comes out. I’ve spoken to at least 4 local dealers and the leases on these are absurd and dealers don’t seem to want to play ball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is no “play ball” on these, they command MSRP pretty much everywhere. They are worth it.

Leasing these is never good, but if you’re able to purchase one, they tend to hold their value extremely well. It really is the last of the old-school stuff.

Agreed it just doesn't make much sense to lease a vehicle that barely depreciates. 2-3 year old 4Runners sell for 75-80% of MSRP.

I traded in my 12 year old Tacoma for 60% of the purchase price. Simply unbelievable lack of depreciation.

Needless to say, I bought another.

I don't know if it's the same in the US, but in Oz there is a Toyota tax. A bit like Rolex, the entry price is inflated but they hold that value so the turn-over price is solid.

When I bought my Isuzu in 2018 the equivalent Toyota (called the Prado here) was 20K more. Looking at current resale, that gap is still there. So there would have been no benefit in my tying up that extra 20K. My Isuzu has been flawless whilst I note Toyota have had a bunch of recalls.

Toyota have historically made good cars...they are no longer as good as they used to be but that hasn't impacted on the amount of kool-aid flowing around them. IMO Toyota peaked with the 80 series Landcruiser.

There is a bit of that here, but not as challenging as it sounds in Australia, especially for new vehicles.

In my area, the Toyota dealers are mostly independent franchises (some dealerships with 4 or 5 locations, but that is about it). In normal conditions you are able to have the dealerships compete with one another for the best price.

That said, getting a Toyota (especially a popular model) for well under MSRP is fairly rare.

I've heard horror stories about other regions where the dealer network is much larger. The Toyota Tacoma forums here talk about the "Southeast Region Toyota Mafia" where the dealers all band together to lock prices, and even mandate "port installed" accessories to drive the prices even higher.

It is not uncommon for motivated folks to fly to a remote dealership who happens to have the exact configuration you are looking for at the right price. They just fly out, buy the truck, and drive it home.

FWIW, you can do the same thing for items like Toyota extended warranties. Individual dealerships set the price on those, so the forums have a thread dedicated to which particular dealer is offering the best pricing at the moment and you just order it over the phone. The same goes for parts and accessories. Most dealers offer free shipping, so you just go the the parts department who is running the best sale.

[Ryeguy]

Speaking of holding value, has anyone taken a look at the prices on last generation Honda Fits? It’s crazy how much a low mileage one will go for.

Funny as I just did a search yesterday. My youngest kid just got his license yesterday and wants to get a used manual hatchback or sedan. I was trying to steer him towards a fit but he doesn't like them. He is looking at old VW's and Audi's. Guess I will have some oil spots on my new driveway.

I don't know if it's the same in the US, but in Oz there is a Toyota tax. A bit like Rolex, the entry price is inflated but they hold that value so the turn-over price is solid.

When I bought my Isuzu in 2018 the equivalent Toyota (called the Prado here) was 20K more. Looking at current resale, that gap is still there. So there would have been no benefit in my tying up that extra 20K. My Isuzu has been flawless whilst I note Toyota have had a bunch of recalls.

Toyota have historically made good cars...they are no longer as good as they used to be but that hasn't impacted on the amount of kool-aid flowing around them. IMO Toyota peaked with the 80 series Landcruiser.

90's Toyota/Honda are always discussed as having peaked because they were reliable AND this was before cars started being filled with technology... and Toyota/Honda kept it simpler than the equivalent GM, Ford, etc... who liked all kinds of electronic buttons. By the numbers, Toyota/Lexus are still king in reliability compared to the competition.... its just that consumers demand a lot more stuff in their cars which creates more opportunities for issues.

Yeah, I expect my Isuzu will be the last 'dumb' car I own. Everything is 'smart' now and that just means a ton more stuff that can go wrong.

What is kind of ironic to me, however, is the stuff I am watching on my Tacoma isn't the "smart" stuff, but rather the basics that Toyota has shockingly not done right.

Third generation Tacoma's with the 3.5 V6 are notorious for:
1) Timing chain cover leaking
2) QI charging pad bubbling up
3) Bed out of alignment from the factory
4) Rear bumper out of alignment from the factory
5) Paint failure (especially white)
6) Rear coolant pipe cracking and leaking (it is a plastic pipe - why, Toyota?!!)
7) Cylinder #3 grenading
8) AC condenser leaking onto the passenger floorboard
9) Leaking steering rack
10) Noisy diff's

Other than the QI charging pad (which is next to useless anyway), none of these failures are related to "smart" items.

[bedlam]

Speaking of holding value, has anyone taken a look at the prices on last generation Honda Fits? It’s crazy how much a low mileage one will go for.

Funny as I just did a search yesterday. My youngest kid just got his license yesterday and wants to get a used manual hatchback or sedan. I was trying to steer him towards a fit but he doesn't like them. He is looking at old VW's and Audi's. Guess I will have some oil spots on my new driveway.

I don't know if it's the same in the US, but in Oz there is a Toyota tax. A bit like Rolex, the entry price is inflated but they hold that value so the turn-over price is solid.

When I bought my Isuzu in 2018 the equivalent Toyota (called the Prado here) was 20K more. Looking at current resale, that gap is still there. So there would have been no benefit in my tying up that extra 20K. My Isuzu has been flawless whilst I note Toyota have had a bunch of recalls.

Toyota have historically made good cars...they are no longer as good as they used to be but that hasn't impacted on the amount of kool-aid flowing around them. IMO Toyota peaked with the 80 series Landcruiser.

90's Toyota/Honda are always discussed as having peaked because they were reliable AND this was before cars started being filled with technology... and Toyota/Honda kept it simpler than the equivalent GM, Ford, etc... who liked all kinds of electronic buttons. By the numbers, Toyota/Lexus are still king in reliability compared to the competition.... its just that consumers demand a lot more stuff in their cars which creates more opportunities for issues.

Yeah, I expect my Isuzu will be the last 'dumb' car I own. Everything is 'smart' now and that just means a ton more stuff that can go wrong.

What is kind of ironic to me, however, is the stuff I am watching on my Tacoma isn't the "smart" stuff, but rather the basics that Toyota has shockingly not done right.

Third generation Tacoma's with the 3.5 V6 are notorious for:
1) Timing chain cover leaking
2) QI charging pad bubbling up
3) Bed out of alignment from the factory
4) Rear bumper out of alignment from the factory
5) Paint failure (especially white)
6) Rear coolant pipe cracking and leaking (it is a plastic pipe - why, Toyota?!!)
7) Cylinder #3 grenading
8) AC condenser leaking onto the passenger floorboard
9) Leaking steering rack
10) Noisy diff's

Other than the QI charging pad (which is next to useless anyway), none of these failures are related to "smart" items.

Yeah...I just have some issues with running a car-companies networked computer-on-wheels in remote areas. I've heard about the Land Rover Defender going into limp mode over some pretty minor stuff and there is very little that can be repaired by the user without Land Rover and a laptop being involved.

[ezcheese]

I've been watching old Honda Preludes on bring a trailer and this one is going to Fetch a crazy amount:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001- ... relude-85/

[Ryeguy]

Speaking of holding value, has anyone taken a look at the prices on last generation Honda Fits? It’s crazy how much a low mileage one will go for.

Funny as I just did a search yesterday. My youngest kid just got his license yesterday and wants to get a used manual hatchback or sedan. I was trying to steer him towards a fit but he doesn't like them. He is looking at old VW's and Audi's. Guess I will have some oil spots on my new driveway.

I don't know if it's the same in the US, but in Oz there is a Toyota tax. A bit like Rolex, the entry price is inflated but they hold that value so the turn-over price is solid.

When I bought my Isuzu in 2018 the equivalent Toyota (called the Prado here) was 20K more. Looking at current resale, that gap is still there. So there would have been no benefit in my tying up that extra 20K. My Isuzu has been flawless whilst I note Toyota have had a bunch of recalls.

Toyota have historically made good cars...they are no longer as good as they used to be but that hasn't impacted on the amount of kool-aid flowing around them. IMO Toyota peaked with the 80 series Landcruiser.

90's Toyota/Honda are always discussed as having peaked because they were reliable AND this was before cars started being filled with technology... and Toyota/Honda kept it simpler than the equivalent GM, Ford, etc... who liked all kinds of electronic buttons. By the numbers, Toyota/Lexus are still king in reliability compared to the competition.... its just that consumers demand a lot more stuff in their cars which creates more opportunities for issues.

Yeah, I expect my Isuzu will be the last 'dumb' car I own. Everything is 'smart' now and that just means a ton more stuff that can go wrong.

What is kind of ironic to me, however, is the stuff I am watching on my Tacoma isn't the "smart" stuff, but rather the basics that Toyota has shockingly not done right.

Third generation Tacoma's with the 3.5 V6 are notorious for:
1) Timing chain cover leaking
2) QI charging pad bubbling up
3) Bed out of alignment from the factory
4) Rear bumper out of alignment from the factory
5) Paint failure (especially white)
6) Rear coolant pipe cracking and leaking (it is a plastic pipe - why, Toyota?!!)
7) Cylinder #3 grenading
8) AC condenser leaking onto the passenger floorboard
9) Leaking steering rack
10) Noisy diff's

Other than the QI charging pad (which is next to useless anyway), none of these failures are related to "smart" items.

Yeah...I just have some issues with running a car-companies networked computer-on-wheels in remote areas. I've heard about the Land Rover Defender going into limp mode over some pretty minor stuff and there is very little that can be repaired by the user without Land Rover and a laptop being involved.

Unfortunately, that is getting more and more the way of the world today.

I believe this is the result of two concurrent influences:
1) the demand for more and more fuel efficient vehicles is resulting in increased complexity of the engine fuel system and transmission. We are seeing cylinder deactivation, complex fuel / air mapping, etc. all requiring more and more sensors to collect data and more and more lines of code in the ECU.

2) the desire by brand owners for post-sale asset monetization. Not unlike what Rolex is doing to the independent watch maker community, I see brand owners slowly boxing out the local independent mechanic. The day will be here in the near future when the only one who can repair your call will be the dealership as the independents simply do not have the required specialized diagnostic equipment.

Personally, I find it a bit odd when my 4X4 "Off Road" pick-up has a big plastic shield over the engine strongly suggesting the motor to be only worked on by "qualified" mechanics. In some ways I miss my old Jeep with it's 4.0 liter straight six engine and leaf spring suspension. It wasn't particularly refined, but you could fix it with Fred Flintstone's toolbox.

I guess it is the internal debate: is it better to drive an older car that might produce more pollutants out the tailpipe, but it is easily repairable and likely to go for decades, or is it better to purchase a new vehicle that produces less pollutants, but will be expensive to repair and likely not last as long due to pace of technology making current processes obsolete?

[bedlam]

Personally, I find it a bit odd when my 4X4 "Off Road" pick-up has a big plastic shield over the engine strongly suggesting the motor to be only worked on by "qualified" mechanics. In some ways I miss my old Jeep with it's 4.0 liter straight six engine and leaf spring suspension. It wasn't particularly refined, but you could fix it with Fred Flintstone's toolbox.

I guess it is the internal debate: is it better to drive an older car that might produce more pollutants out the tailpipe, but it is easily repairable and likely to go for decades, or is it better to purchase a new vehicle that produces less pollutants, but will be expensive to repair and likely not last as long due to pace of technology making current processes obsolete?

I hope there is some middle ground. EV's can be more simple than ICE's...I like the Nissan concept 4WD that had independent electric motors on each wheel and a 1liter petrol engine that charges the batteries. You can run as an EV around town and then use the engine to keep the batteries topped up when you are remote. Your range is only limited by how much fuel you carry. The independent electric motors are simple, provide redundancy if one goes wrong, are powerful, and provide amazing independent wheel-traction management when off-road. Seem to be the best of all worlds to me.

[Djf1978]

I've been watching old Honda Preludes on bring a trailer and this one is going to Fetch a crazy amount:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001- ... relude-85/

Oh man that is awesome. I would love too get my hands on that.

[Ryeguy]

Personally, I find it a bit odd when my 4X4 "Off Road" pick-up has a big plastic shield over the engine strongly suggesting the motor to be only worked on by "qualified" mechanics. In some ways I miss my old Jeep with it's 4.0 liter straight six engine and leaf spring suspension. It wasn't particularly refined, but you could fix it with Fred Flintstone's toolbox.

I guess it is the internal debate: is it better to drive an older car that might produce more pollutants out the tailpipe, but it is easily repairable and likely to go for decades, or is it better to purchase a new vehicle that produces less pollutants, but will be expensive to repair and likely not last as long due to pace of technology making current processes obsolete?

I hope there is some middle ground. EV's can be more simple than ICE's...I like the Nissan concept 4WD that had independent electric motors on each wheel and a 1liter petrol engine that charges the batteries. You can run as an EV around town and then use the engine to keep the batteries topped up when you are remote. Your range is only limited by how much fuel you carry. The independent electric motors are simple, provide redundancy if one goes wrong, are powerful, and provide amazing independent wheel-traction management when off-road. Seem to be the best of all worlds to me.

I don’t disagree.

I remember an old “Top Gear” episode where the boys built a “hybrid” using a diesel generator, batteries, and a couple electric motors.

The diesel generator ran at optimal efficiency with its only job being to recharge the batteries.

This is exactly how British warships work (only at a larger scale). Replace the diesel generator with a turbine and this is the exact same concept. There is no “throttle” on the gas engine. Vehicle propulsion is 100% electric. The fossil component is purely for power generation.

[dnslater]

I've been watching old Honda Preludes on bring a trailer and this one is going to Fetch a crazy amount:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001- ... relude-85/

Damn that is hot.

I had a late 90's Integra GS-R that I bought new when I got out of college. Sold it when I needed something family friendly in 2003 for $7k. That car is probably worth $15-$20k now. Wish I would have held on to it... but at the time I'm sure I needed the cash.

[ezcheese]

I've been watching old Honda Preludes on bring a trailer and this one is going to Fetch a crazy amount:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001- ... relude-85/

Oh man that is awesome. I would love too get my hands on that.

You and me both!
I've been watching old Saab 900s, Preludes, Porsche 968s, 912s and 911 996 models, but all the great examples are fetching more than I would feel comfortable paying!

[ezcheese]

I've been watching old Honda Preludes on bring a trailer and this one is going to Fetch a crazy amount:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001- ... relude-85/

Damn that is hot.

I had a late 90's Integra GS-R that I bought new when I got out of college. Sold it when I needed something family friendly in 2003 for $7k. That car is probably worth $15-$20k now. Wish I would have held on to it... but at the time I'm sure I needed the cash.

Oh man, yeah those were sweet too!

[ezcheese]

Damn!

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